I do not understand why this word is used to describe a person. Two people in the same churchbook get this label. What does it mean?
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"Zweibrückerischer"
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vnagel2004
Moderation
Since we're not "playing" best guess -like: the person to whom this term refers may originate from the city, Zweibrücken- .... please provide the following details:
-parish / church book name
-time of entry / record
-which context / event type
-and also permalinks to these images in question.
Thanks, Vera
-parish / church book name
-time of entry / record
-which context / event type
-and also permalinks to these images in question.
Thanks, Vera
The persons come from the dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken which existed until the French Revolution.
A subject to the duke of Zweibrücken was known as "Zweibrückisch" in the region especially as it was very splintered and parts of it were rather distant from the city Zweibrücken. For example: Annweiler, Bergzabern, Birkenfeld, Meisenheim, Stadecken and even Bischweiler in Alsace among many others were part of it.
Kings of Sweden, Bavaria and Austria were among the descendants of the dukes of Zweibrücken, even the Lothringian German Emperors since Franz I.
When you travelled through the Palatinate in the 17th century, almost every village you crossed had another regent, be it the Palatinate Prince Elector, some bishop, several counts and knights and some were even more remote as the counts of Nassau. All in all there were at least 50 different regents in the Palatinate and the "Zweibrückisch" were about the most prominent of them as there were about 60000 of them in 1801.
Those were spread among a great area though.
Hoping this is helpful,
Rainer
A subject to the duke of Zweibrücken was known as "Zweibrückisch" in the region especially as it was very splintered and parts of it were rather distant from the city Zweibrücken. For example: Annweiler, Bergzabern, Birkenfeld, Meisenheim, Stadecken and even Bischweiler in Alsace among many others were part of it.
Kings of Sweden, Bavaria and Austria were among the descendants of the dukes of Zweibrücken, even the Lothringian German Emperors since Franz I.
When you travelled through the Palatinate in the 17th century, almost every village you crossed had another regent, be it the Palatinate Prince Elector, some bishop, several counts and knights and some were even more remote as the counts of Nassau. All in all there were at least 50 different regents in the Palatinate and the "Zweibrückisch" were about the most prominent of them as there were about 60000 of them in 1801.
Those were spread among a great area though.
Hoping this is helpful,
Rainer
vnagel2004
Moderation
A very fine and comprehensive reply. Thank you.
And you're sure that these "undefined" churchbook entries -being referred to by the initiator of this thread- were recorded prior to 1801 when the dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken ended to exist?
IMHO Questions being posted here should be as precise as possible, leaving as little as possible room for "guessing".
VG, Vera
And you're sure that these "undefined" churchbook entries -being referred to by the initiator of this thread- were recorded prior to 1801 when the dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken ended to exist?
IMHO Questions being posted here should be as precise as possible, leaving as little as possible room for "guessing".
VG, Vera
I will provide more information to allow a better examination as to the specifics of word use. I hoped to get a response without introducing my own bias so I posted the question as I did.
To provide more information. I offer the following, but will attach images at a later time so others might read for themselves.
Both names that I have found this use are Isaac de La Heye, born before 1708 and Abraham Petillion, born 2 Apr 1684.
The churchbooks where these were recorded are from Winden, though I might have also seen it used in Barbelroth on a limited basis.
Nobody else in the books, not even those affiliated names that are French in origin have this word used in their records.
Time period is about 1715 - 1740 but I will again get examples so as to be thorough.
I don't believe these families traveled through Zweibrucken on their way to Winden, Rohrbach, and Steinweiler, instead views are that records exist in Mannheim as part of their migration from northern areas of France and Middelburgh, but this has yet to be documented to my expectations.
To provide more information. I offer the following, but will attach images at a later time so others might read for themselves.
Both names that I have found this use are Isaac de La Heye, born before 1708 and Abraham Petillion, born 2 Apr 1684.
The churchbooks where these were recorded are from Winden, though I might have also seen it used in Barbelroth on a limited basis.
Nobody else in the books, not even those affiliated names that are French in origin have this word used in their records.
Time period is about 1715 - 1740 but I will again get examples so as to be thorough.
I don't believe these families traveled through Zweibrucken on their way to Winden, Rohrbach, and Steinweiler, instead views are that records exist in Mannheim as part of their migration from northern areas of France and Middelburgh, but this has yet to be documented to my expectations.
Hallo,
warum werde ich das Gefühl nicht los das es bei der Ausgangsfrage nicht um die Forschung einer einzelnen Person geht?
Der Fragensteller schreibt zu viel um den heißen Brei und kommt nicht zum Punkt.
Irgendwie lese ich das alsob die Mormonen Hilfe bräuchten.
Grüße
Bernd
warum werde ich das Gefühl nicht los das es bei der Ausgangsfrage nicht um die Forschung einer einzelnen Person geht?
Der Fragensteller schreibt zu viel um den heißen Brei und kommt nicht zum Punkt.
Irgendwie lese ich das alsob die Mormonen Hilfe bräuchten.
Grüße
Bernd
Ich habe die Frage nach 2x Leuten gestellt, die im Ahnenbaum verwandt sind. Ich glaube nicht, dass die Frage nur diesen beiden Personen, sondern einer größeren Gruppe vorbehalten ist. Auch wenn sich dies als nicht zutreffend erweist, habe ich den beiden Personen, in denen die Verwendung des Wortes Zweibrücker geschrieben wurde, zusätzliche Details gegeben. Der Gebrauch ist adjektiv in seiner Schrift, so dass ich dachte, dass Verständnis meine Forschung weiter fördern kann.
Ich werde mein Bestes tun, um in diesen Foren keine Fragen mehr zu stellen. Es scheint, dass es unveröffentlichte Regeln oder Anforderungen gibt, auf die geantwortet werden muss. Während ich die Regeln verstehe, sie gelesen und übersetzt habe, ist die Möglichkeit, eine Frage zu einem Wort zu stellen, das in Datensätzen verwendet wird, wo es nicht sinnvoll ist, immer nur für einen Datensatz zu gelten. Zu oft haben die Antworten hier wenig mit der Frage zu tun und mehr mit den Leuten, die sich über die Frage beschweren oder wie der Fragesteller sie fragt.
Wenn die Menschen keine positive oder hilfreiche Antwort geben möchten, warum müssen Sie dann überhaupt antworten?
Selbst ein Kommentar, der nach mehr Informationen fragt, scheint höflicher zu sein, als negativ zu sein und eine Frage mit "Spielen" oder "Mormon" zu kennzeichnen. Was muss Mormon machen oder Spiele?
Vielleicht ist das alles, weil ich kein deutscher Muttersprachler bin, vielleicht bin ich zu begrenzt, um die Etikette hier zu verstehen.
Ich wünsche Ihnen alles Gute und hoffe, dass Sie niemals Hilfe von jemandem benötigen, der so sauer ist wie Sie.
Wenn die Menschen keine positive oder hilfreiche Antwort geben möchten, warum müssen Sie dann überhaupt antworten?
Selbst ein Kommentar, der nach mehr Informationen fragt, scheint höflicher zu sein, als negativ zu sein und eine Frage mit "Spielen" oder "Mormon" zu kennzeichnen. Was muss Mormon machen oder Spiele?
Vielleicht ist das alles, weil ich kein deutscher Muttersprachler bin, vielleicht bin ich zu begrenzt, um die Etikette hier zu verstehen.
Ich wünsche Ihnen alles Gute und hoffe, dass Sie niemals Hilfe von jemandem benötigen, der so sauer ist wie Sie.
vnagel2004
Moderation
I'm very sorry indeed, but all of that has nothing to do with your initial question here. And believe it or not: everybody(!) is more than welcome to ask as many questions as possible or as necessary in order to "get the most" out of the records pertaining to his/her ancestry.
But(!) since language and meanings/usage of words (be it single words, expressions or what so ever and also regardless of their grammatical form) change/changed a lot over centuries as well as in specific regions of what is today called Germany.
That said everybody needs to provide as detailed information as possible (which church book, what time, which event type --> easy to be completed by providing a permalink to the record(s) in question
[how to do that is btw described here: https://www.archion.de/de/hilfe/permalink/ ])
regarding the records which raise questions in order to achieve a profound answer.
In hopes that the two of us at least agree that only profound replies/answers help improve one's genealogy/ancestry and provide more understanding of our ancestors' lives, all the best to you,
Vera
Examples, Andreas Petillion
http://www.archion.de/p/0b6ae56bc4/
http://www.archion.de/p/b862542acc/
http://www.archion.de/p/2d7e87c2ec/
http://www.archion.de/p/0b6ae56bc4/
http://www.archion.de/p/b862542acc/
http://www.archion.de/p/2d7e87c2ec/
Charle de La heye examples. abt 1669 - 2 Jul 1729
http://www.archion.de/p/db19c95bea/
http://www.archion.de/p/7b1206687e/
http://www.archion.de/p/db19c95bea/
http://www.archion.de/p/7b1206687e/
vnagel2004
Moderation
Ah, thanks so much for posting these links. Now the "muddy water" gets clear.
The phrase/term in question to which you should have refered is:
Zweibrückischer Hoffmann
....and the place in question is:
Winden (Pfalz)
[Winden, Palatinate(!!) - that is of special importance/meaning, since there are a couple of German places named Winden]
This Winden was part of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken [therefore the adjective "zweibrückisch"], until it became part of France on March, 14 1793 - i.e. see 3rd paragraph, section "Geschichte" (history) here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)
"Hoffmann/Hofmann" - a noun(!), in this case here, pertaining to / indicating the social status/standing resp. the profession of a certain person.
A short explanation might i.e. be found here - paragraph "Namensherkunft":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann
Bottom line in short:
Both of your ancestors "worked" for the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken.
Hope that helps,
Vera
The phrase/term in question to which you should have refered is:
Zweibrückischer Hoffmann
....and the place in question is:
Winden (Pfalz)
[Winden, Palatinate(!!) - that is of special importance/meaning, since there are a couple of German places named Winden]
This Winden was part of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken [therefore the adjective "zweibrückisch"], until it became part of France on March, 14 1793 - i.e. see 3rd paragraph, section "Geschichte" (history) here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)
"Hoffmann/Hofmann" - a noun(!), in this case here, pertaining to / indicating the social status/standing resp. the profession of a certain person.
A short explanation might i.e. be found here - paragraph "Namensherkunft":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann
Bottom line in short:
Both of your ancestors "worked" for the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken.
Hope that helps,
Vera
Vera, that is very helpful, thank you for taking the time to respond in such a way.
What does it mean?
If they were immigrants to the region for the land offer and as protestants would they be given such a position?
Would it mean they were actually at a time in Zweibrucken or affiliated in some way through the as refugees from France?
Were they representatives of the Duke regarding the immigrants in the area, would that mean they are in civil or administrative records in Speyer or elsewhere?
Where might this lead me to conduct research? The records in Barbelroth are from 1593 and these family names do not begin showing up until 1690 or so. Nothing that I have found to date provides me any indication of their origin.
I am sorry for asking more questions, this topic very interesting for me.
What does it mean?
If they were immigrants to the region for the land offer and as protestants would they be given such a position?
Would it mean they were actually at a time in Zweibrucken or affiliated in some way through the as refugees from France?
Were they representatives of the Duke regarding the immigrants in the area, would that mean they are in civil or administrative records in Speyer or elsewhere?
Where might this lead me to conduct research? The records in Barbelroth are from 1593 and these family names do not begin showing up until 1690 or so. Nothing that I have found to date provides me any indication of their origin.
I am sorry for asking more questions, this topic very interesting for me.
vnagel2004
Moderation
You're very welcome.
This leads you to huguenot research.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots
One link which I posted in my previous reply did not work properly, sorry. It should have been
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)
[please copy the ENTIRE -incl. the part in round brackets- link above and paste it into your browser.]
excerpt from that Wikipedia side:
"....Winden zählt zu denjenigen Dörfern, die im Zuge der Wiederbesiedlung der Südpfalz nach dem Dreißigjährigen Krieg, von Hugenotten geprägt wurden...."
Vera
This leads you to huguenot research.....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots
One link which I posted in my previous reply did not work properly, sorry. It should have been
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)
[please copy the ENTIRE -incl. the part in round brackets- link above and paste it into your browser.]
excerpt from that Wikipedia side:
"....Winden zählt zu denjenigen Dörfern, die im Zuge der Wiederbesiedlung der Südpfalz nach dem Dreißigjährigen Krieg, von Hugenotten geprägt wurden...."
Vera
This area is very strange. Some entries are in the books of Barbelroth, others in Winden, others in Rohrbach. I find it very confusing.
One entry states (1711) the man "Bevier" is Wallonisch, but I have not seen this for any other names.
I think the Huguenotts are the history I must find, but where did they get this grant? Maybe what others say is that they came from Mannheim. Would an administrative record document the granting of land and the title Zweibrucker?
There is still a churchbook that Archion does not have ready. The records fill a chronological gap in Winden between 1703 and 1714, so I hope that will help me understand things when it is available to read at Archion.
The "Zweibrucker", were they tenants of the provided land by the Duke of Zweibrucken for a period of time? Did the land become theirs and maybe their children inherit, or return to the Duke after a generation? All of their children seem to leave this area prior to 1770. Again, would there be records of who was granted the title or land?
One entry states (1711) the man "Bevier" is Wallonisch, but I have not seen this for any other names.
I think the Huguenotts are the history I must find, but where did they get this grant? Maybe what others say is that they came from Mannheim. Would an administrative record document the granting of land and the title Zweibrucker?
There is still a churchbook that Archion does not have ready. The records fill a chronological gap in Winden between 1703 and 1714, so I hope that will help me understand things when it is available to read at Archion.
The "Zweibrucker", were they tenants of the provided land by the Duke of Zweibrucken for a period of time? Did the land become theirs and maybe their children inherit, or return to the Duke after a generation? All of their children seem to leave this area prior to 1770. Again, would there be records of who was granted the title or land?
As I am "Zweibrückisch" myself (in a way), I`d like to answer some of your questions in making some (maybe unrelated) remarks.
1. The first link you`ve shown refers to Andreas son of Piere La Hey, not Petillon. Most likely the correct spelling of his name would be Pierre de la Haye, a rather common name in the region of Liège.
2. Many of the so-called Huguenots who came to the Palatinate were indeed Wallonians from the region of Liège, especially in Otterberg and Frankenthal.
3. In 1689 French troops conquered the Palatinate. The duke of Zweibrücken who already was connected to the duke of Lothringia in many ways and participated in the Huguenot wars, opened his possessions, especially in the neglected and devastated area of his Oberamt Bergzabern, to immigrants from France. These immigrants were granted neglected farm estates to manage them for the duke who was the owner. So indeed they were tenants and probably Protestants got prefered. Some were allowed to hand them down (Erbpächter), others not. Immigrants were also prefered to manage these estates because of their progressive farming methods. So they brought with them the potato (as cattle food) which was unknown in Germany. The dukedom Zweibrücken was the first to cultivate the potato here and Palatinate farmers who stayed poor despite everyting spread (mainly per emigration) the potato throughout the land.
4. "Zweibrückisch" was not a title but the concretization who their master was. The word "Hofmann" demands the affix "of whom?" as he is not supposed to be self-reliant.
5. I`d like to advice you to follow the Wallonian trace, I think "ancestry" has a lot of information about these folk so "go ancestry!"
6. Don`t get angry because of ridiculous statements about evil Mormons spying out others and maybe trying to eliminate them because "they know too much".
Best wishes for your research,
Rainer
1. The first link you`ve shown refers to Andreas son of Piere La Hey, not Petillon. Most likely the correct spelling of his name would be Pierre de la Haye, a rather common name in the region of Liège.
2. Many of the so-called Huguenots who came to the Palatinate were indeed Wallonians from the region of Liège, especially in Otterberg and Frankenthal.
3. In 1689 French troops conquered the Palatinate. The duke of Zweibrücken who already was connected to the duke of Lothringia in many ways and participated in the Huguenot wars, opened his possessions, especially in the neglected and devastated area of his Oberamt Bergzabern, to immigrants from France. These immigrants were granted neglected farm estates to manage them for the duke who was the owner. So indeed they were tenants and probably Protestants got prefered. Some were allowed to hand them down (Erbpächter), others not. Immigrants were also prefered to manage these estates because of their progressive farming methods. So they brought with them the potato (as cattle food) which was unknown in Germany. The dukedom Zweibrücken was the first to cultivate the potato here and Palatinate farmers who stayed poor despite everyting spread (mainly per emigration) the potato throughout the land.
4. "Zweibrückisch" was not a title but the concretization who their master was. The word "Hofmann" demands the affix "of whom?" as he is not supposed to be self-reliant.
5. I`d like to advice you to follow the Wallonian trace, I think "ancestry" has a lot of information about these folk so "go ancestry!"
6. Don`t get angry because of ridiculous statements about evil Mormons spying out others and maybe trying to eliminate them because "they know too much".
Best wishes for your research,
Rainer
I will do my best to stay positive. As stated it may be a factor of misunderstanding as I am not German nor are many here American/English. I have uncovered the German Huguenot website so I will also try to gather information there.
Just to be sure I have this question unanswered. Were records of these land events kept by the Duke, if so, where might I find them?
I am coming to Germany this June and maybe I can be lucky to uncover something while there.
Just to be sure I have this question unanswered. Were records of these land events kept by the Duke, if so, where might I find them?
I am coming to Germany this June and maybe I can be lucky to uncover something while there.
vnagel2004
Moderation
You need to learn about
-the history of Winden (Pfalz/Palatinate)
-huguenot history
etc
There's even a so-called "Online Ortsfamilienbuch (OFB)" [Online Familybook about all families residing at a certain place during a certian period of time] for Winden (Pfalz)
http://www.online-ofb.de/winden/
[Introduction page]
http://www.online-ofb.de/famlist.php?ofb=winden&b=A&lang=de
[Start page listing family names with intial character "A" - from here simply select / navigate to the character you're interested in.]
Composed by Werner Esser. His email address is provided on that website as well.
He for sure has profound knowledge about Winden/Palatinate and it's history.
Besides this there are a number of books, periodicals, information etc dealing with Huguenots in the Palatinate
http://www.evpfalz.de/gemeinden_cms...erke/zentralarchiv/dateien/arc_Hugenotten.pdf
https://www.historischer-verein-bza.de/Hugenotten.pdf
You could also try to contract the authors of these publications in order to learn more, even regarding properties of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken. This may help to answer your "land record" question.
Please always keep in mind that this is no history or general genealogical research forum, but instead a forum -primarily run by volunteers!- focused on the here available, digitized church books and their content.
And again "Zweibrückisch / Zweibrückischer" is absolutely NO title - it's a simple adjective used like i.e. in "Canadian" farmer. And "Hofmann / Hoffmann" in the vast majority of cases has nothing to do with being noble!
BTW
If you have difficulties with German umlauted characters like ä, ö, ü (Ä, Ö, Ü), it's completely wrong to use a simple a, o, u instead!
The only correct way to substitute these special characters is: ae, oe, ue (Ae, Oe, Ue) nothing else!
Good luck, Vera
-the history of Winden (Pfalz/Palatinate)
-huguenot history
etc
There's even a so-called "Online Ortsfamilienbuch (OFB)" [Online Familybook about all families residing at a certain place during a certian period of time] for Winden (Pfalz)
http://www.online-ofb.de/winden/
[Introduction page]
http://www.online-ofb.de/famlist.php?ofb=winden&b=A&lang=de
[Start page listing family names with intial character "A" - from here simply select / navigate to the character you're interested in.]
Composed by Werner Esser. His email address is provided on that website as well.
He for sure has profound knowledge about Winden/Palatinate and it's history.
Besides this there are a number of books, periodicals, information etc dealing with Huguenots in the Palatinate
http://www.evpfalz.de/gemeinden_cms...erke/zentralarchiv/dateien/arc_Hugenotten.pdf
https://www.historischer-verein-bza.de/Hugenotten.pdf
You could also try to contract the authors of these publications in order to learn more, even regarding properties of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken. This may help to answer your "land record" question.
Please always keep in mind that this is no history or general genealogical research forum, but instead a forum -primarily run by volunteers!- focused on the here available, digitized church books and their content.
And again "Zweibrückisch / Zweibrückischer" is absolutely NO title - it's a simple adjective used like i.e. in "Canadian" farmer. And "Hofmann / Hoffmann" in the vast majority of cases has nothing to do with being noble!
BTW
If you have difficulties with German umlauted characters like ä, ö, ü (Ä, Ö, Ü), it's completely wrong to use a simple a, o, u instead!
The only correct way to substitute these special characters is: ae, oe, ue (Ae, Oe, Ue) nothing else!
Good luck, Vera
Thank you. I will work on this and keep my topics here focused.