Does anyone know why the years 1738 to 1748 are missing for the marriage, births, deaths, and confirmation sections from this church book? Those years coincide with the tenure of Pastor Friedrich Hieronymus Henzen. The microfilmed pages, while stamped consecutively for the filming, simply skip those years. I suspect that Pastor Henzen died unexpectedly in Sept 1748, but what happened to the records he would have kept during his tenure? I'm interested in those years because Pastor Henzen was my 5x great-grandfather. Thanks for any insight anyone can offer.
-
Bitte beachten Sie unsere Richtlinien für die Forennutzung
Landeskirchliches Archiv der Evangelisch-lutherischen Landeskirche Hannovers/Kirchenkreis Grafschaft Schaumburg/Fischbeck
- Ersteller Dori68
- Erstellt am
vnagel2004
Moderation
Please refer to this message
L = Lücke = gap / non-existing records
As you can see there are several gaps in these church registers within births, marriages and deaths.
As to why these gaps exist several reasons may come to mind.
In case you may be interested in some more historical information about the parish Fischbeck please refer to this article
KB Fischbeck
Hallo, es gibt unter Niedersachsen: Landeskirchliches Archiv Hannover - Kirchenkreis Grafschaft Schaumburg - Fischbeck das Kirchenbuch 1606 - 1632. Das ist zwar nicht ganz richtig, da es Trauungen bis 1637, Taufen bis Jan. 1632 und Beerdigungen bis 1629 beinhaltet. - Meine Frage ist aber, wo...
www.archion.de
L = Lücke = gap / non-existing records
As you can see there are several gaps in these church registers within births, marriages and deaths.
As to why these gaps exist several reasons may come to mind.
In case you may be interested in some more historical information about the parish Fischbeck please refer to this article
vnagel2004
Moderation
In addition….
This source tells, that Pastor Friederich Hieronymus Henze from Ravensberg, who served in Fischbeck for 10 years, himself did not record anything at all within the church registers. Why???? Seems like he didn't have much interest in administrative work involved with running a parish properly.
Church register entries start again when -after his death- his son came into service in Fischbeck.
This source tells, that Pastor Friederich Hieronymus Henze from Ravensberg, who served in Fischbeck for 10 years, himself did not record anything at all within the church registers. Why???? Seems like he didn't have much interest in administrative work involved with running a parish properly.
Monatschrift für Gottesdienst und kirchliche Kunst
books.google.de
Church register entries start again when -after his death- his son came into service in Fischbeck.
vnagel2004
Moderation
May be this is obsolete since you already know everything, but just in case you would be interested:
Deutsches Geschlechterbuch
Band / Volume 89
[other title / AKA: Niedersaechsisches Geschlechterbuch, Band / Volume 3]
Seite / physical Page #363 [when you view it online it's page # 497 of 952]
contains data for this ecclesiastic family Henze / Hentze serving in Fischbeck
[The entire book is here - also available for download]
[This is the "Henze" page]
Deutsches Geschlechterbuch
Band / Volume 89
[other title / AKA: Niedersaechsisches Geschlechterbuch, Band / Volume 3]
Seite / physical Page #363 [when you view it online it's page # 497 of 952]
contains data for this ecclesiastic family Henze / Hentze serving in Fischbeck
[The entire book is here - also available for download]
[This is the "Henze" page]
Vnagels004,
Thank you so much for the information. I was getting a lot of information from family trees that did not have source verification for the information they presented. I was starting to find some of it, but your references are very helpful in documenting the family line from printed sources.
It's too bad that Pastor Hentzen apparently did not understand the importance of keeping the administrative records as part of properly running a parish. I was hoping to find the 1739 or 1740 confirmation record for Friedrich's third son, Johan Wilhelm (my 4th great-grandfather) to tie him to his father and to verify that Wilhelm was in fact Friedrich's son, as all the family trees claim. His christening record is probably on one of the torn pages missing from the Alechriede at Onasbruck church book and no other record I've found for him mentions his father (Wilhelm moved to Denmark probably in the 1780s). So, the search goes on.
Thank you again for your help. Have a good day!
Thank you so much for the information. I was getting a lot of information from family trees that did not have source verification for the information they presented. I was starting to find some of it, but your references are very helpful in documenting the family line from printed sources.
It's too bad that Pastor Hentzen apparently did not understand the importance of keeping the administrative records as part of properly running a parish. I was hoping to find the 1739 or 1740 confirmation record for Friedrich's third son, Johan Wilhelm (my 4th great-grandfather) to tie him to his father and to verify that Wilhelm was in fact Friedrich's son, as all the family trees claim. His christening record is probably on one of the torn pages missing from the Alechriede at Onasbruck church book and no other record I've found for him mentions his father (Wilhelm moved to Denmark probably in the 1780s). So, the search goes on.
Thank you again for your help. Have a good day!
vnagel2004
Moderation
vnagel2004
Moderation
Do you already have this on from 1734
www.archion.de
After Friedrich Hieronymus Henze / Hentze left Achelriede / Bissendorf, he served as Pastor and Stifts-Sekretarius in Minden, Sankt Marien Kirche.
Or this one from 1736
www.archion.de
Meantime I had a look at several of those family trees to which you refer and sorry to say so: "There's a lot of unproven stuff and -sorry for my harsh words- nonsense out there."
Greetings, Vera
Viewer
After Friedrich Hieronymus Henze / Hentze left Achelriede / Bissendorf, he served as Pastor and Stifts-Sekretarius in Minden, Sankt Marien Kirche.
Or this one from 1736
Viewer
Meantime I had a look at several of those family trees to which you refer and sorry to say so: "There's a lot of unproven stuff and -sorry for my harsh words- nonsense out there."
Greetings, Vera
Vera,
I completely agree about the unproven information on those family trees and that some of it is nonsense. That's why I've been searching for primary source or good secondary source documentation. My background is library science, research, and records management, so, to me, documentation is very important to substantiate the information. I admit that it's challenging looking at church book records written in languages I don't know with the 18th century script, and (frankly) often bad handwriting , but the names and dates are usually recognizable.
Thank you again for your help. I have been trying to find out where Pastor Henzen served in between his tenures as Alcheriede and Fischbeck. I had come across the Hannover Parish History earlier and found the pastor list at the Alcheriede page listing him as serving from 1718 -1731. The title page of the Fischbeck church book (1677-1777) lists Pastor Henzen as serving there for 10 years or from 1738-1748. So, I really appreciate learning where he served from 1731 to 1738. I might now be able to find his youngest daughter's birth record, probably in 1736 (Maria was confirmed in 1750, as noted by her brother Daniel in the Fischbeck church record).
I'm still on the search for a documented connection between Johan Wilhelm and Pastor Hentzen because that's the connection between my mother's family line and the Hentzen family line. His 1750 marriage record to Mette Magdalene Asmussen at Gelting, Schleswig, doesn't list his father either. I haven't found his second marriage record to Mette Christiansdatter yet, although that might be in the Danish records. Wilhelm re-married in his early 60s and had a second family of six children in Denmark. It's the names of his children that indicate a connection: Heinrich Hieronymus, Friedrich Christian, Daniel Christian, Elsabeth Magdalene, Jens Christian, and Sophia Maria. However, I'd still like to find some written documentation backing up the connection.
My mother's family did a lot of genealogical research but never traced this line past Johan Wilhelm Hentzen probably because they could not find any more records for him in Denmark, not having access at the time to the Danish censuses. My mother's line is Danish/Swedish (or so they thought) while my father was a first generation German (his parents immigrated as children with their respective families in the mid-1890s from Poznan and Volynia. Although I've traced the Poznan records as far back as I can go online, I don't know where the families came from in Germany originally or when they left as colonists.).
I hope that you don't mind my going on about my research and family. If you do, let me know and I'll stop. I just find genealogical research and the resulting stories so interesting.
Thanks again,
Dori
vnagel2004
Moderation
Dori,
you're very welcome.
The title page says that he served in Fischbeck for 10 years and 8 months.
With regard to his children including Maria Friederica, plus a younger brother which no one so far has > please check the permalinks to Archion records which I already provided.
I've some other secondary sources available regarding Friedrich Hieronymus Henze/Hentze.
In case you may be interested please feel free to let me know.
Greetings,
Vera
Vera,
I am interested in any sources regarding Friedrich Hieronymus Henze/Henzen/Hentzen. I have run across The Lutheran Pastors of Westfalen on Google Books, but it's not fully available online. So, I appreciate any sources to which you can provide a link.
I checked out the birth record for Johann Rudolph at the link you provided. It's interesting that Friedrich uses the title 'Secretari' instead of 'Pastori.' I ran across an earlier record for a Past. Secretari Dunkers' son. Also, Friedrich uses the title 'herr Pastor' in Maria's record. I do wonder what's going on with these various titles. I also can't make out the first name/title of the Henzen listed as the godfather.
Perhaps a reason why no one has ever found another record for Rudolph is that he died during Pastor Henzen's tenure at Fischbeck when the pastor was not recording anything in the church book. I didn't see a confirmation record for him during Daniel's tenure, as there was for Maria Friedrica. Rudolph would likely have been confirmed before Daniel's death , but even so, the later pastors kept the records. I did find a 1773 birth record for Maria Friedrica's son, Rudolph Hinrich Lammers. Maybe she named her son after her little brother.
I've decided that there is sufficient circumstantial evidence to conclude that Johan Wilhelm is the son of Friedrich Hieronymus Henzen, as the family trees claim. The clincher for me is that he named every one of his kids after a relative, even as he was named after his uncle, Johan Wilhelm. I also found a 1752 birth record in Gelting (where Wilhelm married in 1750) for Sophie Maria Henzen's son Johan Wilhelm, which doesn't list a father. However, Johan Wilhelm Henzen is listed as a godfather. I suspect that she might have been a cousin.
Thank you again for all your help.
Dori
vnagel2004
Moderation
Dori.
-The entire book by Friedrich Wilhelm Baucks "Die Evangelischen Pfarrer in Westfalen von der Reformationszeit bis 1945" can be downloaded here
-Regarding Pastor Henzen's "titles" at Sankt Marien Minden.... that requires a detailed understanding of the history and structure of this big and important church in Minden.
I'll get back to you on this special topic by separate message.
In very short: Sankt Marien in Minden always had a stuff of more than just one clergyman who although all being educated "pastors" served in various positions.
And, another tiny aspect, the wording in these church registers of Sankt Marien Minden clearly reflects, that the effective pastors in charge did not maintain these books themselves.
-Godparent etc...
Baptism 1736
des H[errn] Stiffs Secretarii Henzen
Söhnlein Johann Rudolph, Gefatt[er] [Gevatter]
der H[err] Verwalter Henzen
Verwalter = administrator / custodian
Vera
-The entire book by Friedrich Wilhelm Baucks "Die Evangelischen Pfarrer in Westfalen von der Reformationszeit bis 1945" can be downloaded here
-Regarding Pastor Henzen's "titles" at Sankt Marien Minden.... that requires a detailed understanding of the history and structure of this big and important church in Minden.
I'll get back to you on this special topic by separate message.
In very short: Sankt Marien in Minden always had a stuff of more than just one clergyman who although all being educated "pastors" served in various positions.
And, another tiny aspect, the wording in these church registers of Sankt Marien Minden clearly reflects, that the effective pastors in charge did not maintain these books themselves.
-Godparent etc...
Baptism 1736
des H[errn] Stiffs Secretarii Henzen
Söhnlein Johann Rudolph, Gefatt[er] [Gevatter]
der H[err] Verwalter Henzen
Verwalter = administrator / custodian
Vera
Vera,
Thank you so much for the book download. I had no idea that there were so many Hentzen pastors or that Magdalena's husband Christoph was a pastor.
Also, thank you for the transcription of the 1736 baptism record and the info about the situation at the Minden St. Marien church. I didn't realize how big this church was, which, of course, would have a large staff.
Is the godfather Verwalter Henzen possibly a reference to Johan Erich Henzen, Hieronymus' father? In the Bauks book, he's referred to as "Verwalter Johann Erich H." One of the family trees interpreted that as meaning that Erich was a property manager, but, in this context, it seems to be referring more to a church position, possibly non-pastoral.
I really appreciate your patience and tolerance of all my questions. This is just all very interesting to me.
Dori
Thank you so much for the book download. I had no idea that there were so many Hentzen pastors or that Magdalena's husband Christoph was a pastor.
Also, thank you for the transcription of the 1736 baptism record and the info about the situation at the Minden St. Marien church. I didn't realize how big this church was, which, of course, would have a large staff.
Is the godfather Verwalter Henzen possibly a reference to Johan Erich Henzen, Hieronymus' father? In the Bauks book, he's referred to as "Verwalter Johann Erich H." One of the family trees interpreted that as meaning that Erich was a property manager, but, in this context, it seems to be referring more to a church position, possibly non-pastoral.
I really appreciate your patience and tolerance of all my questions. This is just all very interesting to me.
Dori
vnagel2004
Moderation
Dori,
yes, that clearly is a reference to Johann Erich Hentzen / Henzen, administrator / custodian of the estate / Gut / Böckel [Boeckel] near Rödinghausen [Roedinghausen], father of Friedrich Hieromymus.
Johann Erich Hentzen / Henzen is also being mentioned as: Rentmeister / treasurer.
Some information of the estate / Gut / Böckel [Boeckel] may be found here:
Gut Böckel – Wikipedia
Johann Erich Henzen had absolutely no(!) church position, nor did he have any non-pastoral position at a church or similar.
He primarily had to oversee / manage the finances, working for the noble family "von Voss" who were the owners of this estate.
Voss (niedersächsische Adelsgeschlechter) – Wikipedia
Hieronymus apparently had a sister, Dorothea Margarete Gertrud Henzen, who married the Pastor in Herford, Friedrich Christian Borgmeyer >> see record # 668 in the "Pastors book".
Vera
vnagel2004
Moderation
.... and on this page you find Friedrich Hieronymus Hentzen as student at the University of Jena
left column - near the column start
"Hentzen, Frid. Hier., Westfalus [from Westphalia], 24 Okt. [October] 1712 [date of enrollment / matriculation]"
[Cover page of this source:
https://zs.thulb.uni-jena.de/rsc/vi...001.tif?logicalDiv=jportal_jparticle_00550913 ]
left column - near the column start
"Hentzen, Frid. Hier., Westfalus [from Westphalia], 24 Okt. [October] 1712 [date of enrollment / matriculation]"
[Cover page of this source:
https://zs.thulb.uni-jena.de/rsc/vi...001.tif?logicalDiv=jportal_jparticle_00550913 ]
Vera,
Here I am again with my questions and comments.
I checked out all the links you provided, which were most interesting and helped to clear up some points. I appreciate the clarification on J. Erich Henzen's occupation as Rentmeister and estate administrator. He must have been an important personage in the area.
Also, the note that F. Hieronymus had another sister, Dorothea who married a pastor led me to re-look at the Frederking entry in Bauks and see that his sister Magdalena (Lucia's godmother) married a businessman, Rudolph Frederking, and that their son Christian was the pastor.
I find it interesting that J. Daniel followed in his father's footsteps as a pastor while J. Wilhelm apparently followed in his grandfather's footsteps as an estate manager at Gut Gelting in the then Duchy of Schleswig (although. I am still looking for verification of this claim).
I've started searching the Aerzen churchbooks for primary source documentation to back up the information given in the family trees about the earlier generations. I've already run across J. Erich's 1690 marriage record documenting that he was married in the village of Aerzen and not in Muckum.
Again, I so appreciate your help in explaining things about this time period and providing links to documentation that I did not even know existed.
I also appreciate that Archion has church book records accessible that are not accessible at other genealogical sites.
I think that you are about 9 hours ahead of me, so hopefully you are getting this during your day. I, however, am going to bed.
Thanks again. Have a good day.
Dori
Here I am again with my questions and comments.
I checked out all the links you provided, which were most interesting and helped to clear up some points. I appreciate the clarification on J. Erich Henzen's occupation as Rentmeister and estate administrator. He must have been an important personage in the area.
Also, the note that F. Hieronymus had another sister, Dorothea who married a pastor led me to re-look at the Frederking entry in Bauks and see that his sister Magdalena (Lucia's godmother) married a businessman, Rudolph Frederking, and that their son Christian was the pastor.
I find it interesting that J. Daniel followed in his father's footsteps as a pastor while J. Wilhelm apparently followed in his grandfather's footsteps as an estate manager at Gut Gelting in the then Duchy of Schleswig (although. I am still looking for verification of this claim).
I've started searching the Aerzen churchbooks for primary source documentation to back up the information given in the family trees about the earlier generations. I've already run across J. Erich's 1690 marriage record documenting that he was married in the village of Aerzen and not in Muckum.
Again, I so appreciate your help in explaining things about this time period and providing links to documentation that I did not even know existed.
I also appreciate that Archion has church book records accessible that are not accessible at other genealogical sites.
I think that you are about 9 hours ahead of me, so hopefully you are getting this during your day. I, however, am going to bed.
Thanks again. Have a good day.
Dori
vnagel2004
Moderation
Dori.
You're always welcome and yes, right now it's a sunny but cold Saturday morning.
Given the time gap you may be anywhere in the western American region where I attended college and a short stay at university ..... oh well, these good old days.... decades ago....
In case anything arises which you may want to discuss by private message, you're welcome to use the little envelope symbol in the upper right corner of this window.
Kind greetings,
Vera
You're always welcome and yes, right now it's a sunny but cold Saturday morning.
Given the time gap you may be anywhere in the western American region where I attended college and a short stay at university ..... oh well, these good old days.... decades ago....
In case anything arises which you may want to discuss by private message, you're welcome to use the little envelope symbol in the upper right corner of this window.
Kind greetings,
Vera
vnagel2004
Moderation
Yes, that is correct - he married in Aerzen because his wife was a native of Aerzen.