"Zweibrückerischer"

goancestry
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05.07.2018

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Charle de La heye examples. abt 1669 - 2 Jul 1729

http://www.archion.de/p/db19c95bea/

http://www.archion.de/p/7b1206687e/

vnagel2004
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18.12.2014

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Ah, thanks so much for posting these links. Now the "muddy water" gets clear.

The phrase/term in question to which you should have refered is:

Zweibrückischer Hoffmann

....and the place in question is:

Winden (Pfalz)

[Winden, Palatinate(!!) - that is of special importance/meaning, since there are a couple of German places named Winden]

This Winden was part of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken [therefore the adjective "zweibrückisch"], until it became part of France on March, 14 1793 - i.e. see 3rd paragraph, section "Geschichte" (history) here:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)

"Hoffmann/Hofmann" - a noun(!), in this case here, pertaining to / indicating the social status/standing resp. the profession of a certain person.

A short explanation might i.e. be found here - paragraph "Namensherkunft":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann

Bottom line in short:
Both of your ancestors "worked" for the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken.

Hope that helps,
Vera

goancestry
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05.07.2018

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Vera, that is very helpful, thank you for taking the time to respond in such a way.

What does it mean?

If they were immigrants to the region for the land offer and as protestants would they be given such a position?

Would it mean they were actually at a time in Zweibrucken or affiliated in some way through the as refugees from France?

Were they representatives of the Duke regarding the immigrants in the area, would that mean they are in civil or administrative records in Speyer or elsewhere?

Where might this lead me to conduct research? The records in Barbelroth are from 1593 and these family names do not begin showing up until 1690 or so. Nothing that I have found to date provides me any indication of their origin.

I am sorry for asking more questions, this topic very interesting for me.

vnagel2004
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You're very welcome.

This leads you to huguenot research.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenots

One link which I posted in my previous reply did not work properly, sorry. It should have been

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winden_(Pfalz)

[please copy the ENTIRE -incl. the part in round brackets- link above and paste it into your browser.]

excerpt from that Wikipedia side:

"....Winden zählt zu denjenigen Dörfern, die im Zuge der Wiederbesiedlung der Südpfalz nach dem Dreißigjährigen Krieg, von Hugenotten geprägt wurden...."

Vera

goancestry
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This area is very strange. Some entries are in the books of Barbelroth, others in Winden, others in Rohrbach. I find it very confusing.

One entry states (1711) the man "Bevier" is Wallonisch, but I have not seen this for any other names.

I think the Huguenotts are the history I must find, but where did they get this grant? Maybe what others say is that they came from Mannheim. Would an administrative record document the granting of land and the title Zweibrucker?

There is still a churchbook that Archion does not have ready. The records fill a chronological gap in Winden between 1703 and 1714, so I hope that will help me understand things when it is available to read at Archion.

The "Zweibrucker", were they tenants of the provided land by the Duke of Zweibrucken for a period of time? Did the land become theirs and maybe their children inherit, or return to the Duke after a generation? All of their children seem to leave this area prior to 1770. Again, would there be records of who was granted the title or land?

Freezard
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30.05.2018

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As I am "Zweibrückisch" myself (in a way), I`d like to answer some of your questions in making some (maybe unrelated) remarks.
1. The first link you`ve shown refers to Andreas son of Piere La Hey, not Petillon. Most likely the correct spelling of his name would be Pierre de la Haye, a rather common name in the region of Liège.
2. Many of the so-called Huguenots who came to the Palatinate were indeed Wallonians from the region of Liège, especially in Otterberg and Frankenthal.
3. In 1689 French troops conquered the Palatinate. The duke of Zweibrücken who already was connected to the duke of Lothringia in many ways and participated in the Huguenot wars, opened his possessions, especially in the neglected and devastated area of his Oberamt Bergzabern, to immigrants from France. These immigrants were granted neglected farm estates to manage them for the duke who was the owner. So indeed they were tenants and probably Protestants got prefered. Some were allowed to hand them down (Erbpächter), others not. Immigrants were also prefered to manage these estates because of their progressive farming methods. So they brought with them the potato (as cattle food) which was unknown in Germany. The dukedom Zweibrücken was the first to cultivate the potato here and Palatinate farmers who stayed poor despite everyting spread (mainly per emigration) the potato throughout the land.
4. "Zweibrückisch" was not a title but the concretization who their master was. The word "Hofmann" demands the affix "of whom?" as he is not supposed to be self-reliant.
5. I`d like to advice you to follow the Wallonian trace, I think "ancestry" has a lot of information about these folk so "go ancestry!"
6. Don`t get angry because of ridiculous statements about evil Mormons spying out others and maybe trying to eliminate them because "they know too much".
Best wishes for your research,
Rainer

goancestry
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05.07.2018

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I will do my best to stay positive. As stated it may be a factor of misunderstanding as I am not German nor are many here American/English. I have uncovered the German Huguenot website so I will also try to gather information there.

Just to be sure I have this question unanswered. Were records of these land events kept by the Duke, if so, where might I find them?

I am coming to Germany this June and maybe I can be lucky to uncover something while there.

vnagel2004
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18.12.2014

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You need to learn about

-the history of Winden (Pfalz/Palatinate)
-huguenot history
etc

There's even a so-called "Online Ortsfamilienbuch (OFB)" [Online Familybook about all families residing at a certain place during a certian period of time]for Winden (Pfalz)

http://www.online-ofb.de/winden/
[Introduction page]

http://www.online-ofb.de/famlist.php?ofb=winden&b=A&lang=de
[Start page listing family names with intial character "A" - from here simply select / navigate to the character you're interested in.]

Composed by Werner Esser. His email address is provided on that website as well.
He for sure has profound knowledge about Winden/Palatinate and it's history.

Besides this there are a number of books, periodicals, information etc dealing with Huguenots in the Palatinate

http://www.evpfalz.de/gemeinden_cms/fileadmin/user_upload/werke/zentralarchiv/dateien/arc_Hugenotten.pdf

https://www.historischer-verein-bza.de/Hugenotten.pdf

You could also try to contract the authors of these publications in order to learn more, even regarding properties of the Dukedom Pfalz-Zweibrücken. This may help to answer your "land record" question.

Please always keep in mind that this is no history or general genealogical research forum, but instead a forum -primarily run by volunteers!- focused on the here available, digitized church books and their content.

And again "Zweibrückisch / Zweibrückischer" is absolutely NO title - it's a simple adjective used like i.e. in "Canadian" farmer. And "Hofmann / Hoffmann" in the vast majority of cases has nothing to do with being noble!

BTW
If you have difficulties with German umlauted characters like ä, ö, ü (Ä, Ö, Ü), it's completely wrong to use a simple a, o, u instead!
The only correct way to substitute these special characters is: ae, oe, ue (Ae, Oe, Ue) nothing else!

Good luck, Vera

goancestry
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05.07.2018

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Thank you. I will work on this and keep my topics here focused.